OPML Editor community news and discussion Messages

Need a reviewer or three

Fri, 05 May 2006 04:03:51 GMT

Could I have some comments on a draft howto page about distributed directories?

It would be good to have opinions both from people who already know how to make them and people who don't. Thanks.

Tools that understand OPML directory

Fri, 05 May 2006 02:28:34 GMT

Blair sent me the "Tools that understand OPML" file he started on.

I've put in a few more on the list I started, combing Lisa's blog. The Library Clips guy also seems to review all the tools so that would be a good place to look. Maybe he'd like to maintain the directory, if he had some node helpers. Anybody know him, willing to ask? It would be a good demonstration project.

I'm not going to be able to do it myself.

Re: Setting up three directories today

Mon, 01 May 2006 01:17:31 GMT

For the tools, we should probably include the development stage, according to the author. What else would be good? Whether or not the developer is seeking collaborators, and on which parts of the project?

Setting up three directories today

Mon, 01 May 2006 00:34:43 GMT

Here's the the start of the first one:

Community-made OPML Editor tools.

Still assuming we're going to be making the 1.0 site in Manila, the directories in the production site would look something like that, unless we want to adopt some of the Javascript rendering stuff, which people might like.

When there are already links on a given level of the Manila directory, a link called "Suggest a link" appears. It leads to a form that sends e-mail to the editor of OPML file, keeping the maintenance distributed.

It must grab the e-mail address from the owneremail element of the OPML file. That will be a trickle-down change needed with OPML 2.0.

Community-made tools for the OPML Editor

Sun, 30 Apr 2006 21:12:17 GMT

Community-made tools for the OPML Editor

Note on docs

Sun, 30 Apr 2006 19:52:29 GMT

In filling in a few more blanks on the "What the editor does" page I can see we'll need a volunteer editor for the Word Press tool instructions.

I can't find Lisa's manual draft now, so I can't tell if she's done that part or not. I don't think so. Pretty soon we have to work out how to integrate the bits of manuals and how-tos. I guess I've been thinking that Lisa's manual would be the base and could have inclusions?

Re: Synchronization tool: anyone remember?

Tue, 25 Apr 2006 01:31:03 GMT

Thanks, Dan!

I'll bet you were like that in school, always with the answer. Handy guy to have around.

Re: Synchronization tool: anyone remember?

Tue, 25 Apr 2006 00:49:56 GMT

That was Cori Schlegel

Re: Synchronization tool: anyone remember?

Mon, 24 Apr 2006 20:49:01 GMT

Hmm, that's odd. I distinctly remember it too, though I can't find it with Google...

Synchronization tool: anyone remember?

Mon, 24 Apr 2006 19:28:18 GMT

Early on in the beta, probably late summer, someone made a tool making it a little more automatic to do the files changed since thing described here.

Anybody know who, where? Thanks.

Re: Frontier cousins

Sat, 15 Apr 2006 10:34:30 GMT

Yes, I haunt the dev mailing list. Mostly lurking the past 3 weeks. I did receive some good information regarding my server questions. I was going to post the answers, but I have been soooo busy the last 2 weeks. Mostly the developers speak a language that the users could never get used to. Too much tech speak. However, the scripters and some of the power users, myself included, can speak the strange dev speak, and could help to bridge the gap between users and dev's. I used to develop in C, quite a bit, and it's like riding a bike. Once you understand function pointers, your head is never the same.
-dw

Re: Frontier cousins

Sat, 15 Apr 2006 10:33:07 GMT

Good point about liaisons (other great points too!)

Do you haunt the list, David?

Re: Frontier cousins

Sat, 15 Apr 2006 10:22:05 GMT

Hi Amyloo,

Maybe it's a re-think about how this can be organized.

I was thinking about this subject during the past week. I observed that the kernel developers are heads down in their own respective development tracks. Other than a brief pause to consider the idea of 'Frontier' users, they went right back to the work at hand. I know what this can be like. I have done heads down development, and I don't want the flow to be interrupted. Once the creative flow is going, you don't want to stop. So, I was thinking that there appears to be four levels that are emerging (taking a bottom up approach):

1. Frontier Kernel Developers - C developers
2. Frontier Scripters - They write Frontier Scripts
3. Technical/power users - like you, me, and others who are more tech inclined
4. Non-Technical Users

The Non-Technical users are the ones we need to listen to the most. They are the biggest group, and who "we" write software for. The Power Users are more like testers and brokers/translaters of non-tech user information to the scripters. The scripters will do the bulk of the scripting work (what I call the middle layer). However, the Frontier Kernel Developers are needed to fix low-level bugs, and develop new functionality (They call them verbs in Frontier lingo) for the scripters, so the scripter can create usable software for the users. The Technical/Power users are the first-line QA and Testers as well.

The users should be in charge, so that we turn the whole 'traditional' development on it's head. However, there needs to be liasons between the different groups, and maybe a couple of translators/leaders who will not be intimidated by the scripters and the developers. Usually, that's what project managers are, or should be. They should help funnel the users needs down to the developers. imho. and assist the developers to focus and prioritize activity on the really important tasks. i.e. the ones that that the users want.

Heh, now back to your question. I may be wrong, but I think that OS Frontier is a stripped down version of the engine that is used to create a Manila site. I don't think all the pieces of the Manila software is in the OS Frontier engine.

Anybody have more knowledge in this area that they could contribute?

David

Frontier cousins

Sat, 15 Apr 2006 09:50:10 GMT

I'm pretty sure the 1.0 site will be made in Manila, like this site is. At least that's what I'm thinking would be easiest for Dave to maintain. He's been pretty hands-off about this. I just plod along do things on the draft site, and ex

Re: Need an explanation for the support site

Tue, 04 Apr 2006 02:09:23 GMT

Also, it is done automatically, meaning that you don't have to remember to do it, it just happens as long as Work Offline isn't ticked in the File menu.

Re: Need another good example of a distributed directory

Tue, 04 Apr 2006 02:06:22 GMT

Amy, I manage two link directories - directory.bbcity.co.uk and directory.freethoughtfilter.com - the Philosophy node in both is the same file.

I also run the LibriVox category on IndiePodder. Drop me an email if you want to collaborate.

Re: Version number?

Mon, 27 Mar 2006 06:30:52 GMT

That makes sense.

My thinking, FWIW, is that even with a "not ready for prime-time" note, if someone downloads from that link it might be informative for them to be able to see what it was they got. I can see it either way....

Regardless what you decide, what about a version number once it's post-beta? Does that make sense?

Re: Version number?

Sun, 26 Mar 2006 08:05:46 GMT

Hey, Cori. Thanks. Not sure about putting a beta version number on the draft 1.0 page. Maybe better to make it more clear the site isn't really open, just being built in the open -- and point to the existing support.opml.org?

Version number?

Sun, 26 Mar 2006 05:18:20 GMT

Hi Amy;

Thanks for putting this together, it's looking great!

Any chance of getting the current version number of the download on the download page at some point?

Need another good example of a distributed directory

Sat, 25 Mar 2006 18:14:04 GMT

I'm working (slowly) on the 1.0 site. Here's the start of a howto page that will be supported by at least three screen demos. What do you think would be a good example to use for the last one, showing the organizer's job?

I'd still like to get an audio interview with a ipodder directory category editor. Maybe Richard would do it. Could somebody help him with his "days on the home page" setting? I've tried but I'm out of ideas. He's a little shy about posting on the Yahoo groups.

Re: Could do worse than to emulate this

Fri, 24 Mar 2006 10:25:18 GMT

i went poking around in there. sure is complete. that support page is really just a directory of links to other sites looks like to me. i like how they use subdomains for the internal ones though.

that's easy to do with manila sites.

i also like the breadth of the material one can access just from that support page... other sites, books, contractors, jumping off points, etc.

Comments workarounds roundup

Fri, 24 Mar 2006 05:33:18 GMT

I'm guessing there won't be support for blog comments for 1.0? That means we should have instructions on how to do the Halo thing on the support site. Are there other methods that should be mentioned? If you know of other 3rd-party systems or want to volunteer to write and/or screencast a howto, please reply here.

Could do worse than to emulate this

Thu, 23 Mar 2006 06:50:49 GMT

Openoffice.org has a remarkably complete support site. The team has to be many times larger than the one for our little effort.

Re: Need an explanation for the support site

Tue, 21 Mar 2006 02:06:43 GMT

Thanks, Dan. That's nice and tight, and doesn't get into anything most people don't have to know.

Re: Need an explanation for the support site

Mon, 20 Mar 2006 22:39:06 GMT

The OPML Editor monitors your files and automatically copies them from your local computer to the server as you create new files or make changes to existing files. It also deletes files on the server when you delete them on your local computer.

Need an explanation for the support site

Mon, 20 Mar 2006 22:26:51 GMT

Would anyone be willing to take a crack at an explanation of upstreaming, maybe as compared to FTP, in language my father can understand?

Or point me to a page having a good description.

Thanks.

Re: All the cars we've ever owned

Sun, 19 Mar 2006 18:41:42 GMT

Put the car roll here as a directory.

All the cars we've ever owned

Sun, 19 Mar 2006 17:40:38 GMT

All the cars we've ever owned

Re: Call for help from the Little Red Hen

Sat, 18 Mar 2006 20:14:10 GMT

Amy, max-width (and max-height) don't work in Internet Explorer (at least IE 6). Period.

I don't have time today to help, but you might get some hints about dealing with these CSS quirks from these links.

Call for help from the Little Red Hen

Sat, 18 Mar 2006 06:20:31 GMT

Howto on building a community directory

Thu, 16 Mar 2006 04:37:43 GMT

I added this to the planning notes. The OPML file doesn't seem to be updating here today.

Ext337's wish for instructions on building a distributed community directory

Dan and Amy both recommended that Donovan's map-a-domain screencast include not just the posting to and viewing of the HTML ouput of an OPML file in directory format, but also the setup step -- mapping the domain.
The same screencast could include an explanation of how to build a distributed directory, but it probably deserves its own. I could demo the car roll. That's a really simple one and sometimes with small datasets, it's easier to comprehend what's going on. Or should we have the example be something in use in the real world, like the ipodder directory?

From my post on the format:

I put it on the list of screencast todos, but it should be done in manual style, too. Users want something to reference while they're working, don't you think? I can output a PDF of the content with the program I use for screencasts -- Captivate (formerly RoboDemo).

I'd love to see if we have among us a connection to an ipodder directory category editor for a couple different purposes for the support site -- maybe an audio interview or a screencast or both. Please speak up if you do, or suggest another real world directory. We could always use Dave's, but I think it would be nice to have an example or two outside the community to show it works out there in the world.

Re: Partying together

Wed, 15 Mar 2006 13:13:53 GMT

On thinking it over, let's just go ahead with it.

Partying together

Tue, 14 Mar 2006 16:07:56 GMT

Where would I find the best description of the notion of and spirit behind "users and developers partying together?" It's for Hil as she starts the drawing for the 1.0 site's developers index. I tried a Google search for her but I keep finding it attributed to someone else nearly as often as it is attributed to Dave. Is this illustration concept not as right as I imagined? A rotten shame if it's not! I was getting really excited about what Hil would do with it.

1dotoh

Tue, 14 Mar 2006 05:24:53 GMT

Re: Directory of tools that understand OPML

Mon, 13 Mar 2006 16:06:06 GMT

OK. Help me think this through.

Cristian Conti this morning posted a link to some XSLT that turns an OPML file into an XUL tree.

This sort of thing, I think, does not belong in the same directory of tools alongside things like Bloglines OPML import/export, because it's too geeky.

So, if things like this are better tucked into the developer's section of the 1.0 site, what form do you think would be good to present it? Also a directory like this, with a form for developers to suggest links to their own tools? Or could it be done on a message board or in another format. What do you think?

Re: Changes and illustration idea

Mon, 13 Mar 2006 06:06:44 GMT

It's fairly complicated, but I like your ideas and I'm thinking about it. I've also been wondering about a style that suggests simplicity and background (so it doesn't detract from the info), but is layered to suggest the complexity as well. Something like these suggest:

http://inoveryourhead.net/
http://designfruit.com/jasongaylor/blog/?p=37

Changes and illustration idea

Sun, 12 Mar 2006 16:47:19 GMT

1.0 site planning notes

Sun, 12 Mar 2006 03:48:59 GMT

Support site Design/organization Draft site temporarily here Logo Frank Jonen says it's fine to use his icon as the logo Amy's notes to self while reading the Manila newbie material Static pages Home Download Dynamic sections (do sections as Manila departments?) Grok Organized by topic, not chronologically like a blog But maybe a "What's new" box with links to newly added pages Developers section maybe should be a blog? Separate message board Help section, organized by topic Separate message board Words Help section Themes. Assign to Donovan? Make outline with download files and pointers to instructions. Do themes fall into help or mash? It would be kind of nice to make it comfortable for non-programmers to hang out in the developers area. Docs Copy First step: need to pull all the existing docs together, see where the holes and overlaps are Production Dan or somebody else looking into XSLT-FO? Grok section Blair says he'll work on the "Tools that understand OPML" directory Dave's wish Amy's notes Ask Dave's dad to write an article on outlining in general? Mash section Community server docs and travails on opmlcommunity blog and support.opml.org Media Existing audio files Spec. draft 2.0 podcast by Dave 3/1/06 For grok section: Dave Winer talks on his Morning Coffee Notes podcast about idea processing software and how it's different from productivity applications. 4/26/2005, .mp3, 29 min, 10MB For developers (mash) section: Dave's 5/21/05 podcast on MDI and geeky stuff - about the first half (rest is about flamers and big company secrecy, could edit that out for use on the support site) Commissioned audio interviews Types of interview subjects - can anyone identify specific people? Category editor for ipodder directory Blogger User of instant outliner for collaboration - somebody on the dev team? Screencasts Idea for one on instant outlining for collaboration Donovan's map-a-domain lesson (.mov - 4MB) Raymond Kristiansen's Post to your WordPress blog (Flash) Raw directory listing of Raymond's other dailyscreencast.com files Lisa's How to Create a Reading List in the OPML Editor (.avi - 41 MB) For grok and help sections - somebody help locate those already made? Idea: try something that's the opposite of how most screencasts are assembled. Use the audio interviews as the sound track for screencasts. By doing the audio first and the screen demos after, it's more like the way they make cartoons. Site feedback Fumbling my way post on cre89d design blog 02/23/06 Docs Dave's support.opml.org posts by category Lisa's manual draft Dan's docs outline Bela's reading list how-to Tom's docs FAQ MotoBill, 02/24/06: Clearing the main Editor Window; and Missing/Lost Editing Windows Peter 02/26/06: Put Radio-style user bookmark menus in the OPML Editor BPedro 03/02/06: Post to an OPML community server from Omni Outliner Change default browser

Re: Directory of tools that understand OPML

Sat, 11 Mar 2006 21:17:59 GMT

One obvious place to start a directory is aggregators.

I use Bloglines (with NewsRiver as a supplement). Blair, the FAQs mentioning OPML at http://bloglines.com/help/faq#import are:

How Can I Import An Existing List of Subscriptions? Once you have registered with Bloglines and replied to the confirmation email, click on the My Feeds tab at the top of the screen. Then, click on the Edit link. At the bottom of the left panel will be a link to import subscriptions. The subscription list must be in OPML format.

How Can I Export My Subscriptions? From the My Feeds page, click the Edit link at the top of the left panel. There will be a link to export your subscriptions in OPML format. What's OPML Format? OPML format is an XML format. For more information on the OPML format, click here.

The link out is to www.opml.org, which won't tell an average aggregator user much. We should make one of the pages on the new site a substitute for sites like this to link to. Another task that somebody could offer to do when the time comes would be to contact these sites, maybe using Blair's outline as the contact list.

Blair, another pointer: the Library Clips blog has lots of info on OPML tools. Too many words there! But if you scan for links there's good info for the directory in there.

There's so much to do, to do this right. One way to circumscribe the task so it doesn't get overwhelming would be to stick to the Editor itself and not try to inform the world about OPML, the format. They're so tied together, though. *Sigh* Now I'm the one who needs a hug.

Testing edit with OPML editor

Sat, 11 Mar 2006 19:39:39 GMT

Looks like the "edit with Radio" feature might work. Let's see. If it does, it could be really useful for including outlines in Manila pages for the 1.0 site.

This paragraph was entered into the HTML form on the site.

And this paragraph is coming from a file that opened in my OPML editor after clicking on the edit with Radio button on the message page. Yep! Posted instantly. How about that? I just have to put in an extra [br /], looks like. No, two.

Now let's try sticking an outline in here and see what happens.

1.0 site planning notes

O.... K..... looks like it's outputting the content of the nodes I have in the base outline, if it's collapsed, but if I have an inclusion node open it will show that too. No formatting. Back to the docs.

I see. You put rules in with tags for the formatting. I wonder how that works behind the scenes. Probably doesn't use XSL? I'll continue this later.

Back after a nice long nap.

I see I should have heeded the warning about editing in the HTML form after editing in the editor. That's OK. I needed to see what the danger is.

Found the directory template.

1.0 site planning notes

	Support site
	Docs

By jove.

OK. That works. Nice if the nodes were expandable (on the directory pages, not in the little sidebar), but that could come later if we think it's needed.

It doesn't work to display just one part of an outline, using 37/supportSite/media for the value of viewDirectoryBox. What if I tried... nope, it only takes a message number. Can always link directly to the node, like this, not using a directory box.

Here's how some of the draft FAQs look.

Lisa's
Dave's howtos
Dan's isn't displaying right. Oh, no, I see. He's just roughing out questions.
Bela
Tom

I have to see how to display the icon to see the OPML file. Are we using the XML chicklet to represent RSS and OPML? I See, this is really helping me get my arms around this project. I can't do "You're not a programmer, you just make it look and read nice and leave the details to us geeks." (Nobody on this project has said that or implied it, BTW.) If I can't have some picture of what the end product is going to be, I'm adrift. Also I like to be self-sufficient even if it takes some time and ends up being the long way around among other more automated choices. The long-way-around part is a character flaw. What I am, in group? That's part of what writing in outlines does, makes you drift off and get all dreamy and introspective. Get back to business, Aim.

The suggest-a-link form appears to appear only on directory pages where there are links to web pages. Shoot! We could use that feature now to get input for stuff like Blair's directory. Maybe put it on the existing support.opml.org site and see if Dave will let Scripting News readers how about it. We're not ready to have people coming here yet, not those people.

Re: This is more like it

Sat, 11 Mar 2006 09:56:09 GMT

Hi, folks. About opmlcommunity.org - although most of the discussion has revolved around the community server, that's only because no other topic got traction. Of course, if Dave couldn't even register, then maybe it was a just a waste of time anyway.... (In any event, I've manually added Dave as a user.)

Bottom line, that site is there for whatever use people make of it.

This site is looking good, Amy.

Re: Privileges of membership and getting on the stick

Sat, 11 Mar 2006 04:50:17 GMT

Huh. Thanks, Ken. That surprises me a little. Maybe airplane slang was fashionable post WWII.

Anyway, I'll be getting on the stick with the support site, probably on Sunday. I guess I'll keep building it as static HTML and plan, unless I hear differently, that it will end up in a Manila site at some point. I'll also proceed on the assumption that 1) there's some kind of outline rendering in Manila or 2) we can output an opml file within a page in some other way, like an iframe. I think it's preferable to have files like the "Tools that understand OPML directory" be embedded in pages rather than link out to World Outline-type directories. (Unless the pages made with map-a-domain could be styled to match the site.) Just thinking out loud. Chime in if I'm saying something that doesn't make sense, otherwise I'll think it does.

Re: Privileges of membership and getting on the stick

Sat, 11 Mar 2006 01:31:59 GMT

Amy....

Apparently "On the Stick" comes from American slang and probably has to do with the "stick" of earlier airplanes. Here is a site that discusses it:

http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/17/messages/917.html

ken tompkins

Directory of tools that understand OPML

Fri, 10 Mar 2006 20:36:45 GMT

Blair "Cowhand" Fannin has agreed to start pulling together the directory of tools that understand OPML for the support site.

He'll be at SxSW but maybe we can help him get started by listing some of the tools we know about. And any suggestions you have about organizing the directory would be good too.

This is Dave's original post wishing for such a thing. And this is something I blogged about it.

As I mentioned to Blair in e-mail, he might have more success getting input here in the discussion group that trying to do it via instant outliner. (Just today Donovan and I were both just pouting about our lack of success in pushing IOing.)

Privileges of membership and getting on the stick

Fri, 10 Mar 2006 20:06:07 GMT

Well, good, we have five people who have created accounts here, besides me and Dave. I know you have to be logged in to post a message, but I haven't read up yet on any other rights. Anybody know?

I think pretty soon, like tomorrow, it will be time to stop talking about talking about the docs and support site and start doing it, doncha think? I haven't heard what the tentative timetable is.

("You'd better get on the stick" is something my mom says. I know how it's used -- I heard it enough when I was a kid -- but I can't imagine where the phrase might have come from.)

You can subscribe to the discussion group feed

Fri, 10 Mar 2006 15:06:08 GMT

Here's the RSS feed link. If you sub to it, you'll get all the forum messages, plus the news items posted to the home page.

In the nav bar, for reference

Fri, 10 Mar 2006 14:32:52 GMT

Look over there -- on the right.

I added these items to the links:

Site and docs notes

Draft 1.0 site

Let me know if you have an outline I should include in the notes outline?

Re: This is more like it

Fri, 10 Mar 2006 08:12:17 GMT

Thanks for explaining your understanding of all the various opml sites/lists, etc.

so, this site is for those working on something for the 1.0 release. i'll play along. it's nice to know the focus here.

I didn't realize that Dan's opml community site was server oriented. if that's the case, then we are still lacking a community site for opml bloggerooties who want to just hang out and learn. you know, those of us who just aren't into email lists.

i suppose support.opml.org is that place? honestly, the site theme makes me gag so i try no to spend too much time there.

anyway, on to making some 1.0 goodness!

Re: This is more like it

Fri, 10 Mar 2006 07:43:57 GMT

What does everybody think about dumping the e-mail lists for the public release? How do Manila discussion groups work for enduser support? I'm new to Manila but I've installed, configured, customized and moderated lots of web message boards, starting in '96 with the old Matt's wwwboard, then on to Webbbs, eshare, dcforum, Yapp, phpbb. I think that's it. I prefer truly threaded boards, but I know that's something of a religious issue.

This is more like it

Fri, 10 Mar 2006 07:09:53 GMT

Dave was right. I was trying to do two different things that were too different, in making the site do double duty as the draft 1.0 site and a place for community volunteers to work and talk.

Let me take a shot at defining what gets talked about where -- now and when 1.0 is released. Somebody tell me if I'm full of shit.

Now

Questions about using the beta software get asked in a number of places

- The Yahoo! Groups mailling lists: opml-newbies and opmlsupport. Opmlsupport is for more advanced users, and it's linked to the current support.opml.org comments (when you post a comment on support.opml.org, it's added to the message listing on the mailing list).

- Informally, there's some help via crosstalk on the blogs and in individual OPML blog comments.

- Dave makes announcements mostly as posts at support.opml.org, but sometimes announces minor community things on the mailing lists. Hardcore geek posts go on geeks.opml.org (now get otta here).

- Dan's OPMLcommunity.org blog was set up for easier discussion about community server issues. We tried to use it for more general community work, but Dave couldn't get registered...

- and we finally settled on the Manila site for general community discussion. Now here's where somebody needs to set me straight if I'm not seeing this clearly, but I'm thinking this new Manila site is for volunteers working on the docs and site and any other tasks running up to the 1.0 release. I'm thinking it's not a support site for users who aren't working on something for the application.

Post 1.0

There's some time to kick this around. I think it will be a good thing to have discussion on this site, wade in our surroundings, and gague its suitability for support forums. Most open source software supported by a volunteer community have web-based discussion. They're usually searchable and archived, they work pretty well for the purpose, and it's kind of the convention anymore.

I've been picturing the 1.0 site as having four sections mapping to the grok, grab, mash and help buttons on the draft site. I can see the developers' headquarters (mash) having a separate discussion group from the user support forum.

Post a response by hitting the discuss link. I'd like to hear what everybody thinks. Then we can start to work.